Human/Animal Hybrids OK'd in the UK
Posted by NallTWD on Thu, 2007-05-17 15:28
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Location: Boston, MA
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No, this isn't as interesting as you think it is, but hey, it's a step closer. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070517.wbritembryors0517/BNStory/Science/home |

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Location: NJ
I've discussed this with many furs who work in the sciences, and we all agree that human-animal hybridization on the level we fantasize about should NEVER be attempted. Not even taking into consideration the thousands of horribly deformed creatures you'd almost certainly end up with before getting even one 'normal' version, they would be treated horribly and threatened with death from every corner of the globe.
I highly doubt it would ever be attempted deliberately. My fear is that if the experiments are allowed to go too far, one might find scientists who've accidently ended up with sentient and sapient non-human life-forms.
Then what do you do?
Science has a responsibility for what it creates and the responsibility to think first before tragedy occurs, and take all required precautions when proceeding into unfamiliar territory such as this. Anything less is utterly irresponsible and unethical.
Putting a gene or two into an animal's chromosomes obviously won't result instantly in large-breasted vixens who'll become sex-slaves (no matter how much the fanbois would wish it), but just remember that every hard fall starts with one misplaced first step.
Science must be cautious. Osamu Tezuka's "Bagi", fanciful as it is, should be warning enough of how humans gladly misuse such ability and despise their own creations.
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I concur. Even to experiment on such a thing is unconscionable.
Location: Ardmore, PA
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Unconscionable as it may be, I suspect that somewhere, someday, a rogue scientist or company will do just that. And once the proverbial cat is out of the bag, it will be very hard to put a stop to such technology.
In the 1960s, the big issue was equal rights based on skin color. Today, it's equal rights based on sexual orientation. In the future, will it be equal rights based on... species?
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My LJ - My Website
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Hmmm... I think you've got something there.
Now, I can't really envision a future *without* genetic modifications from animals and it'd be unusual to see what kind of 'speciesism' will be thrown their way.
I mean come on, if you could have a lizard's ability to regenerate, hidden gills or who knows how many other wonderful things that wouldn't be able to be immediately seen, wouldn't you? Well, I guess I digress from the species aspect. My guess is we get all the best bits put in as opposed to taking forms at first.
Oh science, how we love thee.
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA, Earth, Milky Way,
Felines unite!
-Rawr
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Bunnies are better! (Not by much, but enough!)
Location: north royalton, Ohio
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The Fennec army has united!
Location: New Brighton, MN, USA
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I think one thing will block such an idea...
Like it or not, other animals are not sentient. Though it will be interesting to witness the day when that is made no longer true.
We assume that animals are not sentient, because they can't tell us they are. If any thing ever comes from that kind of genitic crossing, I hope its a voice. When animals start talking there may actually be true animal rights.
Blog: [Link]
I am compelled.
Animals ARE sentient. They are not sapient, though.
(look both words up).
Location: NJ
Well, sentience in animals also does depend on the species. Some are more sentient than others, and some are very clearly non-sentient. The range of brain size, complexity, and body ratios makes for a vast range of animal intellects from simple eating/reproducing machines with barely any brainpower(shrew, mouse, virtually every arthropod) to eerily human-like behavior and rarely speech (chimpanzee, dolphin, African grey parrot.. which can have a very large and complex vocabulary, plus hints of simply understanding of syntax, adjectives, and other conceptual abstracts.) So when saying animals are sentient, it needs to be clarified that animals considered 'higher' are generally the ones classed as potentially sentient. I say potentially because actual accepted scientific studies demostrating this are very rare for any species. The problem with many studies is they rely too heavily on personal interpretation and not on quantitative, repeatable measures.
Another problem is that in each potentially sentient species there are individuals with far greater intelligence than would be typical of the species as a whole, which tend to gain the most focus and skew opinion. Our cats are a prime example. One, Lucky, is able to understand doorknobs, water faucets, a number of words, and shows an understanding of human mood states. On the opposite side, there's Grady. He shows no sign that he understands more than his name (only when spoken in the same tone each time) and when it's meal time.
It's to be expected, actually. Just as there are Einsteins and Hawkings in humans, it's reasonable to assume genetic factors apply the same way to animals to create a few here and there which exceed by far the rest of their kind in intellect. So one deer with a few extra folds of cortex and maybe a quirkily formed extra cortical neuronal layer might ascend to the level where it has begun to gain some sort of rudimentary comprehension of its existance and the existance of other creatures versus simply responding per genetic programming to implanted environmental/chemical cues while the rest are simply chewing cud mindlessly.
And then how do you test for that without introducing the human elements of either anthropomorphism, or the opposite, both of which introduce observer bias?
At this stage in research, it's also very impossible to say conclusively just how sapient they would be if given the brain structures necessary for speech processing and language... or do the genes involved in the formation of those regions alter ALL cortical structures to human forms. We simply don't know.
Unfortunately, the only way to know would be to create these modified creatures, teach them to speak, then ask them directly if they know they're alive! But then we run into all those lil ethical problems mentioned previously. So, methinks this will be a debate that rages for decades to come. ;P
In any case, lions are, naturally, the most brilliant beasts of all... or so they claim. ;3
Location: Norton, MA
I'd say give it a few years, before a renegade scientist (if they exist [which I'm sure they do]) decides to make human/animal hybrids. Won't be long before you see a huskymorph riding around in Alaska on a snowmobile. Like I said, give some time. Something will pop up.
"Belladonna? Sounds like an opera singer." ~ Charlie, All Dogs Go To Heaven, TV Series
Location: NJ
Probably in Chernobyl... lots o' mutations goin' on there. ;P Although... we might end with Daleks over there instead! D:
Location: Montreal , Quebec , Canada
In Chernobyl humans don't mutate they die ...
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I love you all ..
except for the people I don't like..
Location: NJ
But oddly, many animals seem to be doing fine! Myootants.
Location: New Brighton, MN, USA
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Oh, I do apologize. X_X Even for me, speaking English as long as I have, make mistakes.
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Yeah, easy guy. This is a simple step to make medical science more potent. I don't think this is cause for alarm and mutated anthro-spawn. I just thought it was cute because it had such anthro overtones.
Chill, bra.
Location: Roseville, CA, USA
WOW!
Now this discussion, including all 15 comments made so far, is exactly what makes the general subject of Anthropomorphic Animals so interesting to me - and demonstrates the principle of shared interest that makes for a lively, vibrant Furry Fandom!
Blog: [Link]
At least until someone mentions Hitler.
ACK! I just did!
Game over, man!
Location: NJ
Kage is the weakest link!
Location: East Northport, New York
If you want a good idea of some of the possible problems with future morphs, get a copy of Cordwainer Smith's "We, The Underpeople". Also a good description of sentience vs. sapience can be found in H. Beam Piper's "The Fuzzy Papers". They're both fun and thought provoking. Although, with this crowd, it might not be good idea to provoke anything.
Due to a lack of sleep combined with a lack of time, I haven't been able to read all the comments so I don't know which direction this topic is taking.
But if you really wanna see my impression of a wet blanket, then read on!
My input on the matter doesn't leave me much of any option other than to play the devil's asshole kitt on this one.
I couldn't see this being too great of an idea, even though it's one step forward for one of science's many feet.
From the religeous side of it, the religeonites are probably going to argue that it's a huge sin against god for what'll be countless reasons. One of the arguements could be that by creating life in such a way as this, would give demons easy passage into this world by allowing them to posess such soul less creatures.
Now as for the fantasy side of things, some of you are probably thinking "Oh gosh that's like totally awesome, we'll have anthro wolves and anthro foxes, and I can hang out with them and they'll sit with me and watch my favourite soaps (operas) and I can take them to cons and we'll do stuff together and uh.... do "stuff" together, and I'll hug him, and squeeze him and call him George and it'll be just like I imagined!"
For one, I know that a human animal hybrid won't really be able to speak other than to make the typical animal noises their species makes because the facial musculature will probably be different, provided they have a normal muzzle. They're probably not going to have Wookie bodies. You know, a nice tight six pack, solid chest, strong arms and legs and that perfect butt. Heck this is just a shot in the bark but who knows, they could even be mentally unstable or have some kind of psychological disorder.
But I guess on the plus side, if it ends up where you can buy your own anthropet in the future, if they turn out to be a real terror and a real hassle and you just don't want them anymore, well hey... at least you won't have to shell out thousands of dollars for a really well done fursuit.
Location: NJ
*imagines the horror* Fursuits are made of people!! D:
Soylent Green makes fursuits?
-There is no truth
hehe. There is something morally wrong with this head peice.
Location: DelMarVa
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Call me horrible, but even if such a crossbreed was successful, the benefits for US(Humans) would be immense. What better way to unite humanity than through a common scapegoat? Sad as it is, its the truth, and often the only way people will respond. Generally, the only utopia we can create is a negative one.
Location: DelMarVa
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A human/animal hybrid would be terrifying, to boot. Why do people all over the world fear them? We've got kitsune, werewolves, the Rakhashi and many others. Because humans have a basic genetic drive prone to violence, and animals are simply well equipped to do as such(Claws, teeth, not to mention heightened senses and animal instinct). They probobly wouldn't be as (What we regard as) intelligent as a human, because most animals have smaller brain function, which means higher logic is beyond them and they would be more apt to violence to solve a problem. Something like a mouse, or smaller prey animals, proibobly wouldn't be any fun because they'd be skittish and their new, "improved" size would be incondusive to their normally quick heartrate. Scare them and WHAM- heart attack.
It was just not meant to be.
But on the plus side, we're all anthropormorphic apes :3 So, there ya go. Might not be your animal of CHOICE, but here we are!
And I DO like bananas.
Location: San Antonio, TX
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There was an intresting book I once read in high school. Chimera or something like that. All the "furs" were either servent type slaves or of low status.
Four words, "Planet of the Apes".
Website: [Link]
*facedesks*
Did anyone read this article? x.x
Location: NJ
I did. It just reminded me of several articles I read on the bioethics of creating chimeras while I was at my old job indexing biomedical journals. All articles mentioned the creation of human-like brains in animals and not could these creatures be created, but should they be!
The scientific capability for it is literally just around the corner. I fear not only what humans will do with chimeras, but what they will do with each other. Genetic perfection, anyone?
Hmm... yes, that works for me... *slinks back into his lab to tinker with his genes* >:3
Location: In a small little box in your small little mind.
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There is a problem with that idea though. for something to be perfect, one must define perfection. Perfectly.
If your smart enough, you might see the paradox in there.
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Location: NJ
*Alondro opens the dictionary to find the definition of perfection... and finds his picture right next to it!* Well there ya go! ;D
Location: In a small little box in your small little mind.
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Now I have a question. I would be perfectly fine with anthros born into the world, but here is something else I haven't seen brought up.
What about people who have (or will, whatever) go/gone under advanced genetic surgery to have the fur, ears, tail, muzzle, digigrade, and everything else to look and basically be an anthropomorphic being? What about that? What about people becoming furry?
Now I know that genetic Surgery (GS for short) is far off from something as advanced as that, but if we can give a mouse bunny ears and other appendages that do not belong on it, we will eventually get to the point to were we can do that. Albeit it might take 8 months to a year for the whole process to work its self out (the time need for the surgery, not how long we have to wait for the science to advance that far), but we could and probably will do it. Or someone will at least.
But then there is the question of if you had the money and the time, would you do if you knew that you would survive with out any malformations?
I am not to sure if i would or not, but I might.
Now on a less serious note, i wonder what it would be like to have someone come in as a furry. A REAL furry. ^_^
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If science did get that far I wonder if Stalking Cat, would go for it. He has made amazing strides so far. Shame I have not met him yet.
Location: In a small little box in your small little mind.
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Who what? GIVE ME LINK!
:D
^_^
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http://www.stalkingcat.net/
Location: NJ
Meh. I always think that kind of stuff ends up looking rather ridiculous. Make-up always does a far better job than surgery for furry 'transformations'.
Location: In a small little box in your small little mind.
Website: [Link]
Sadly, it does. Hmmm, lets see if I can get this down
Lets see...
* extensive tattooing, including facial tattooing * That would be about 3000 to 7500 (depends oh who does it, the materials, and how extensive it really is)
* hairline modification * Thats a tricky one... Hmmm, I would say 300 to 650. But thats
* facial transdermal implants to allow the wearing of whiskers * Hmmmm, From what I have found and based on how many he has, It looks to cost 7200 to 8400 (12 * 600 or 12 * 700)
* facial subdermal implants to change the shape of the brow and forehead * I would say about 3000?
* filing and capping of his teeth to have a more feline appearance * Ohhhh, now THATS expensive. About 1500 to 5000
* wearing green contact lenses with slit irises * I would say about 200 considering that this guy is just trying to go all out
* having his ears surgically pointed * Hmmm, 600?
* silicone injection in the lips, cheeks, chin and other parts of his face * Considering that It would be about 400 for each injection and I would say each part got about two injections, it would cost about 4000 to 5000
* bifurcated upper lip * Hmmm, that would probably be a tricky surgery, so about 1000
So in other words, it looks like he spent 20800 to 31350 US dollars! Holy poop, thats a lot. But I would bet that the genetic surgery would make this look like its cheap.
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Not only that but he did all of it without pain killers, or being knocked out. Thats dedication!
Location: In a small little box in your small little mind.
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Citation?
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Just ask him.
Location: NJ
Just think of how detailed a fur-suit you could make for that much. It'd look awesome!
Nah, genetic stuff is cheap if you just want to inject a whole bunch of genetic bits and hope for the best. I gits mah recombinants from Jerry's Discount Genes. ;D
Now, don't get me wrong or anything. I don not endorse the hybridization or genetic modification of species, due to its hit/miss system of experimentation. It makes me cringe to think of all the poor little creatures who are damned to a life of pain and disection. But being humans, we are going to test the limits, legal, illegal, moral, or immoral. So why not look forward to the good that might come of it? Genetic mutation and pushing the fabrics of human/animal structure is kind of exciting. Its similar to the research conducted by the Nazis(Sorry UncleKage, I had to). Is it fair to use the knowledge they gained because they used the Jews as lab rats? Or is it fair to NOT use the info if it is available? When it all comes down to it, Yeah, its tragic, and Yeah, it should never happen again, but whats the point if we don't learn anything from it?
Location: NJ
Actually, from what I've seen most of their human 'research' was poorly conducted and controlled, and of little to no scientific value. A great amount of work was done simply to try to justify eugenics and the Superior Race, which is now known to be utter nonsense. In fact, I'm not aware of a single bit of their research on humans that was ever used for anything else. Do you know of anything they did which proved useful scientifically?
It's like saying you knew Soviet-style Communism would result in the slaughter of tens of millions and the starvation of millions more... but you have to look at the good that came from... oh wait, nothing good ever came from it.
The only thing people really learned from it was why we don't do tests on humans. >:P
Location: Madison WI
This whole topic reminds me of the old book, Johnny Got His Gun. What if we were to screw something up and communication as we know it would not be possible? we could be causing these creatures great pain and they may have concious thought all at the same time. The scienntist never realized what they were doing to the soldier who was still alive inside that body, and all he could hope for was death.
Metallica did a song about this book too, Called one, watch the music video about it. The message (despite being about war) is still relavent to this topic.
Location: north royalton, Ohio
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The song was technically about a person, who was hit by a mortar, and completely paralyzed, deafened, muted, and blinded by shrapnel. However, there are millions of interpretatons of songs. I am also Neutral on the topic. If they DO the modifications SUCCESSFULLY, I would honestly love it.... It would also be useful if they could talk.... Im confusing myself.
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
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[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xfIYmueKeI"]Anthrocon 2008 Compilation Video[/url]
Location: In a small little box in your small little mind.
Website: [Link]
I declare this thread to be a zombie!
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The desire to dream is primordial. Some evolutionary process has instilled life on this planet with the ability to dream. It is essential to survival. Even dogs dream.