A few things that have been running through my mind
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This is something that has been on my mind for quite some time, and I thought it might be a good idea for me to share my thoughts here with you all. I know there is probably no definite answer, but it will at least be good to hear people's suggestions and debates on the subject. I have two points I will now inquire upon. Anthro Duh, I know the definition, and I'm sure everyone else does too (if you don't why the heck are you on a furry forum? The second inquiry is much more simple, but still interesting. What if someone were to dress up as Fox McCloud (the anthropomorphic fox from the Star Fox games) or any other anthropomorphic video game, anime, or movie character. Would that be considered a fursuit because it's an anthro fox, or a cosplay because it's a video game character? Would it be both, neither, or something completely different? I'm interested in hearing everyone's views on this topic. I will post my thoughts after I hear a few of yours. |
). I believe the correct definition would be "applying human characteristics to non-human things," and that is where my question comes in.
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My two cents:
There's a man out there (I believe his name is Dennis: I've never met him personally) who is undergoing surgical and (I think) tattooing procedures to appear catlike. While I think that's excessive, I do feel that it falls into the anthro category. It's the mirror image of the "definition," but you end up with a living being who looks like most anthro art.
Appearing as Totoro (from Miyazaki's Tonari no Totoro) would be both anthro and cosplay: such a fursuit would be completely acceptable as far as I am concerned. I'm fairly certain Uncle Kage would find it perfectly acceptable as well. (This is actually a relatively cheap way to go: you can use the suit at both furry and anime cons, if you wish. The biggest problem I see is that anime cons expect people to dress in costumes that humans wear and don't have the special facilities that full fursuits that furry cons supply.)
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permalinkLocation: Boise, ID
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I believe I know who you're talking about. I've also seen a similar lizard-man doing a similar thing on Ripley's Believe It or Not.
I still would like to hear everyone else's thoughts on these matters. (I'm especially anxious to hear what Uncle Kage has to say about it)
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I think that the line of demarcation between Anime and Anthropomorphics is artificial. Furry is Furry. It doesn't matter where a character originates; just that it is an anthropomorphic animal.
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permalinkLocation: Boise, ID
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For some reason that makes me think of my brother. He draws anthropomorphic dragons, foxes, wolves and whatnot, and has may features of a furry and being part of the fur fandom, yet he denies that he is a furry and claims to be simply an "anthro artist." Personally, I think he's a furry in denial.
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permalinkSadly, the furry genre carries quite a bit of baggage, perception-wise, and that can cause a lot of artists to disavow the classification.
Patrick Kelley comes to mind as a professional artist who at one time identified with the fandom (even having a section on Yerf), but eventually became estranged from it, and even grew disdainful of the genre in general. I'm sure there've been others.
--
iSKUNK!
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permalinkLocation: Mystic, CT
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The formal definition of Anthropomorphism is, indeed, the application of human characteristics to non-human things. Technically, the counterpoint would be more often descriped as 'Zoomorphism', that is, 'in the form of an animal'. That said, these are terms which for Furry Fandom can be used interchangable. Notions of people becoming more animal-like are a big part of stories, comics, and other works within the fandom.
As for whether Fox McCloud costumes would be Fursuit or Cosplay: Well, can't they be both? If 'Cosplay' is defined as 'Dressing in a character from a TV Show/Movie/Comic/Video Game', and 'Fursuiting' is 'Dressing like an Anthropomorphic Animal', then.. it'd be both. Call it whicherver you like, in best point of context.
--Chiaroscuro
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permalinkLocation: Boise, ID
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Ah, there, that's what I was looking for. I was curious as if there was a term for that. Guess I came to the right place and asked the right people.
*makes note of the term*
And with the Fox McCloud think that's kind of what I was thinking, but more along the lines of, it is what they see it as. If they are doing it as cosplay, then it's a cosplay. If they're dressing like that as a fursuiter, then they're fursuiting.
That is what I think on it. I'm happy to hear your thoughts, and I would still like to hear more people's thoughts on the matter.
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permalinkLocation: Roseville, CA, USA
Until my move from Southern CAlifornia a year ago, I had occasion to drive Fred Patten to Saturday Meetings and Screenings at a local clubhouse, of the C/FO (Cartoon Fantasy Organisation) and "CinemAnime" (the name given to open saturday screenings of exclusively Anime). Essentially, the same group of folks showed up at each screening, and Anime was what was principalluy shown at the C/FO screenings, anyway.
Now, Fred was a founder of the C/FO, along with others such as Mark Merlino. He had a role in the introduction and popularisation of Japanese Animation into America, was (and is) an authority on the subject, and its culture. I think that he had hopes that I might gain an appreciation for the artform, and I did find it an extremely interesting cultural "Mirror". We even were able to attend a couple of local-to-LosAngeles Anime Conventions.
I asked him once, what did "CosPlay" mean - how was it different from a SciFi Conventions' "Hall Costumes" or "Masquerade", and he explained the genesis of the term as being a Japanese Corruption of an English Phrase, sort of like Basubaru for "Baseball". The original term was "Costumed Play", for roleplaying in costume, which in Japan became CosPlay - and back in America, Anime Fans would adopt any japanese reference as the only real, authentic way to say or do or describe something, so they do NOT say Costumed Play, it MUST be called CosPlay. Only a real tyro would call it something else, though how a tyro would know of the phrase "Costumed Play" in the first place, if no one ever uses that term, is somewhat unclear.
But the term is apparently quite specific - CosPlay means, dressing as or costumed to look like specific characters, recognizable from specific Anime, or later popular Japanese Computer Games. One could go to an Anime Convention dressed as Fox McCloud, or Sonic the Hedgehog, or Miles (Tails), because they are specific, recognised characters - but a generic fox or wolf or rabbit, even a distinctively dressed one, would NOT be "CosPlay" if they were not SPECIFIC, RECOGNISED characters from an Anime Production - and would be looked at with puzzled expressions and odd glances, and the fursuiter would find him or herself rather left alone and possibly the object of derisive snickering and smothered giggles.
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permalinkLocation: Boise, ID
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Oh, wow, thank you for that. That was a very good description and explanation. Now I know where the term came from, and how to properly apply it.
But, is this research you did, or is it YOUR opinion on the matter?
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permalinkLocation: Roseville, CA, USA
Hrmmm. I am a little disappointed to find that my communications are not as clear and effective as I imagined them to be. Evidently, I have failed.
I am not really a follower or a fan of Anime. But after some exposure to it, and attending a couple of conventions with a friend, I was curious, as you were; and I asked a question, just as you did. The answer was provided by my friend, and I regard him as familiar enough with Anime, its origins, rituals, and culture, to be giving me as accurate an answer as could be found. That was all the research that I gave the matter.
Now - was asking my friend a reasonable way to get an accurate answer, based on some framework of fact? It IS, if my friend has some authority to say what he told me. I have good reason to believe that he does.
Here is a little article about my friend:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Patten
Read both the article itself, and then click the "Discussion" tab, to read comments about the relevancy of the article. After you have done that, then I will abide by your judgement, as to whether I adequately researched the question or not.
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permalinkLocation: Roseville, CA, USA
Dang it, it "Double Clutched", somehow.
Yes, I edited my answer - the second version corrected a word I mispelled, and I added a "Smily" so as to indicate the post as being "friendly", not angsty. That was all.
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permalinkLocation: Boise, ID
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Ah, okay, I guess I was the one who was a bit mistaken then. I'm a simple fox, so sometimes large words confuse me and I misread things. Your first post just to me seemed somewhat like research that you found.
My mistake
But either way, it seems people are somewhat misunderstanding what I am asking. I know what anime is, and I know what furry is. I just wanted to know what people's personal opinion was on the situation like Fox McCloud being a fursuit vs being a CosPlay.
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permalinkMy personal opinion? The difference between Fox McCloud being a fursuit vs. cosplay depends on only one thing:
Whether you are wearing it at an anime con or a furry con.
Bluntly, IMO, in this case it's a distinction without a difference. Cosplay covers a 'broader' area in that it includes characters who have no furry attributes. Ayeka of Tenchi Muyo would be cosplay only, while Ryo-ohki would be both. Ifurita of El Hazard would be cosplay while Ura would be both.
In short, if the character is from anime and has furry characteristics, it is appropriate for a suit at a furcon. If it has no furry attributes, it isn't appropriate. That's not to say you couldn't wear it at a furcon, just that you'd be out of place.
Also note that above this post Uncle Kage (Anthrocon Staff, Member and Chairman of the AC Board of Directors) said he felt the distinction was artificial. Chiaroscuro (Staff and Member of the AC Board of Directors) also said a costume could be both. That makes it as close to gospel as you can get as far as Anthrocon is concerned.
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permalinkLocation: Roseville, CA, USA
Well, I have seen a couple different Robin Hood fursuits, and at least one really good Pinky (as in "Pinky and The Brain"), and they would fit the definition of CosPlay, WHILE ALSO BEING fursuits - they would probably be recognisable by any furry fan, and likely most Anime Fans - but since they are not from Anime, or Manga, or Computer games with a japanese origin, they would be thought of as "out of place" at an Anime Convention.
How about Spyro, the little fire-breathing dragon who flames evil sheep in a computer game? He would fit in either category, and MIGHT pass at an Anime Convention, even though the creator of the character, a man who somehow retained all rights to him BTW, is an american living in Burbank and running an animation school.
For your purposes, I think that the answers which Uncle Kage, Chiaro, and CharlieG gave you, are probably the best; for a Furry Fan standpoint, the characters are "Anthropomorphic Animals", whether specific character from a story or not; from an Anime Fan perspective, Fox McCloud would fit, for CosPlay, I think, but the others are just - random, anonymous animals.
Another way to look at the question - think of Anime Conventions as very much like Star Trek conventions, where the fans are celebrating a very specific, limited and defined thing or class of things. A costumer who goes to a Star Trek convention is going to dress as a member of the Federation, or a Starship crewman, or a Klingon or Romulan or some other character or race which HAS APPEARED in Star Trek; somebody dressed as Tom Corbett, Space Cadet, or Ming the Merciless, is gonna be out of place and unrecognised. Even more so if costumed as an Orc or a Hobbit. Even a Darth Vader is going to have to suffer a few giggles and people pointing at him, for he is just NOT Star Trek. Same for Anime.
For what it is worth - a costumer by the name of Lance Ikegawa works with a group, who every year do the characters from specific Manga or Anime, for "CosPlay" at Anime Conventions in Southern California, or at San Diego ComiCon. This year, his troup presented their costumes for the characters from "BLEACH", whos creator happened to be at the convention. Two of the characters are not human - one is an angry, samurai-like warrior, who happens to be an anthropomorphic fox, named KOMAMURA. Komamura is depicted as wearing these samurai kimono-like robes, and a rather large helmet. Lance was able to reproduce them perfectly, and all the characters got a nice round of applause when they appeared on-stage. And then Lance lifted off the helmet - see, for most costumers and CosPlayers, that would have been enough, but Lance also happens to be one of THE Master Fursuit fabricators in the world - the kind who makes $6,000 fursuits, with the fur fabric that costs $120 per square foot and stretches in both dimensions, and his fursuits don't have any apparent zippers or other fasteners that you can see, to break the illusion. When Lance took off the helmet, you didn't see Lance; you saw Komamura, the angry and fierce fox warrior. Some small pictures yanked from his site:
http://www.akela.com/IMAGES2008/SDCC-2008/SDCC2008-koma.jpg
Well, no one was expecting THAT, not even the BLEACH creator. It certainly nailed the overall impression.
Now - this was DEFINITELY "CosPlay". Would it count as an Anthro Fursuit? If the first impression you get is of a Fox Samurai, then I would say YES.
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permalinkLocation: Boise, ID
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Wow, that suit is really amazing.
Also, speaking on the issue of costuming in certain places, what about the people who dressed up as Captain Jack Sparrow, or Beetlejuice at AnthroCon? I've seen them several times in YouTube videos of AC. It seems to me that the Beetejuice costumer is a regular at AC, however I haven't heard anyone say that they seemed out of place.
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permalinkLocation: Philadelphia area, PA
[shrugs] Perhaps we're less concerned than some other fandoms about what is or is not "on topic".
Or perhaps we enjoy these folks so much that we don't care what the heck they come as, so long as they come.
Or perhaps there are just a lot of fans of Beetlejuice and the Pirates of the Caribbean series among furs.
I imagine it varies from fur to fur.
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permalinkLocation: Mystic, CT
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Well, the folks dressing up as Jack Sparrow and Beetlejuice are, very simply, not wearing fursuits. They are wearing costumes to a furry convention. As for this being 'out of place'.. well, in some cases non-furry costumers are keeping to our theme, like the attendance in our 'Invention' year of a Benjamin Franklin historical re-enactor; or Furfright's Halloween theme making for a range of 'scary' attendees.
In other cases, there's simply an appreciation by those of us of good costuming. While the people you've mentioned might not blend thematically with our furry overall theme or specific themes, there can be appreciation for a well-made and well-acted costume.
As for cases like Kage's labcoat or my chef outfit, we dress in the iconic symbols of our profession to command the fear and respect so vital to maintaining order. (Also, it's cheap to wear work clothes!)
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permalinkLocation: Boise, ID
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And it's a part of that, that I don't quite understand, so lemme see if I'm getting it straight...
It would be unusual for a fursuiter to go to an anime or non-furry con, but it's not unusual for a costumer (not a fursuiter) to go to a furry con?
And I understand the situation with you and Kage. People wouldn't recognize him without his lab coat. And I don't think (or at least recognize) seeing any pictures of you.
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permalinkLocation: Mystic, CT
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Actually, it's not terribly unusual for fursuiters to attend non-furry cons- it's actually a fairly frequent situation. Though they will sometimes stand out, depending on how tightly the convention hews to each theme, In a pure anime con, a fursuit would be a bit more out of place than a general-purpose convention like DragonCon. (Of course, as said before.. there are anime and other characters whom are anthropomorphs!)
Offhand, I would say that of costumed attendees at Anthrocon- that is to say, the ones who are not in 'regular clothes'- 95% or more of the costumes are anthropomorphic animals of some form. The number of non-furry yet costume-wearing members is fairly small at most furry cons; the Halloween cons such as FurFright and Furloween have a greater percentage, but it's still modest.
Kage has done some vanishing acts, as have I, when 'out of uniform'. After how easy it was for me to go incognito at MFF 2006, I now quite believe that all Clark Kent has to do is take off his glasses, and no one knows he's Superman.
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permalinkLocation: Boise, ID
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Ah, okay, I see. I guess it would be alright for me to wear my fursuit at our local con.
And I've never actually been to AC, so I've only seen Kage in pictures and in videos. Still, I don't think I've ever seen pictures of you, or seen you in the videos (or like I said, maybe just didn't recognize you).
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permalinkLocation: Mystic, CT
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I would imagine your local con, you can probably wear your fursuit and have a fine and pleasant time. You might be the only person there in suit, but if you're having fun and people enjoy it, that's what matters.
And if you're interested in seeing me, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tLS0fS6ejE and other 'related videos' has me in 2008's Opening Ceremonies. As far as I know, no one's posted pictures of me in my chef's outfit.
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permalinkLocation: Boise, ID
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Yeah, if I had it, I would have worn it to Fandemonium (Our little local con here in Idaho), and I'm sure next year when I go, I will be the only fursuiter, and hope to gather a lot of attention.
And now that I know what you look like, I'll be able to identify you at the con! See you in 09!
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permalinkLocation: Honey Creek, Iowa
Of interesting note, is that due to poor turnout with individual cons and not enough volunteers to help out in one particular nearby locality (area not named intentionally) the groups, both anime and furry are considering a combined convention next year, along with the trekkies!
Should be an interesting experiment if it works, not to mention one hell of a photo op.
Jeefers
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permalinkLocation: Boise, ID
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I think that is the case for our local convention, Fandemonium, which isn't for any one fandom in particular. I went for the first time this year, and they had gaming stuff, anime stuff, comics, cards, etc. Not much furry stuff, but I did meet a few other furs there (one of which helped me sew up my tail when the strap came loose).
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